WHY is it best to wait til your 25 before using any AAS or preformance enhancers?

[heyboy]

WHY?

 

[JahCure]

This question is perfectly designed for a google search...

 

[sespress]

For one your normal test levels are already through the roof in comparison. For another AAS potentially effect your levels of test moving forwards. As in your screw up bad enough you'll really screw up your body. Gains at less than 25 are stellar without drugs.

I happen to be a hardhead and don't often take advice, and I have taken aas in the past, but I also am a bit wary these days and even I agree that you don't need it before then.

I honestly don't know how much better you'd get training hard for instance at 18-22 than using a 12 week test cycle in your 30's.

Like you saw from the other post there's a great Google in that, and much more technical information available. Highly suggest you read every day a bit about this stuff. It'll take a year or so to become "well versed". Steroiology online is a decent enough encyclopedia. Go for medical info sources when possible, take forum advice with grains of salt, train hard for now and good luck to you!

 

[heyboy]

is the best argument ¨you dont need it¨ ?

 

[Jebrook]

is the best argument ¨you dont need it¨ ?

The most important reason is that the endocrine system is still developing. Using exogenous steroids at a younger age puts a user at a much higher risk of hypogonadism and all the joys that go along with it.

 

[vujade]

Normal test levels are highest from 18 to 27.

Taking anything hormonal could ruin what you could achieve naturally in those years.

Starting early can also effect getting on TRT a lot sooner then normal because most
people don't do PCT correctly and end up with LOW T at some point in their 30's
instead of 40's or 50's.

 

[Justlooking5]

As someone who is now on TRT and did their first prohormone cycle at age 18 (Biotest topical 4-AD), and first AAS cycle at age 18/19 (sust/deca/dbol), I think it's possible that using AAS while younger could affect your endocrine system more permanently because it is still developing (assuming it's true that it develops into the mid-20s).

However, I also want to say that I think the idea of "proper PCT" as a way to prevent permanent suppression is a myth. 12 years after my last cycle I did extensive clomid runs and my levels always fell back to mid-high 300s. My sense is that AAS in many guys permanently downregulates your natural production, as happened in my case.

Anyone using AAS IMO should consider that they will have permanent suppression as a result. There's another long thread about this "Does anyone have optimal test levels after multiple cycles," and there are several studies posted there showing a large majority of ex-AAS users have test levels in the lower ranges or are clinically hypogonadal.

 

[justhere4comm]

WHY?

Because you've been told this already a number of times. That's why.

 

[Rodja]

Because 99.999999% of people under that age aren't ready in terms of training experience. The first 5-7 years is when you're just getting your training wheels off of you.

 

[bobi593]

hormones is one thing but also the later you take ass the higher chances for build up your natural base most of the guys who take juice in their 20 or even before have almost nothing on their bodys and once they off usually end up with small amount of muscle and fock up endocr/system goood example is Jerry Ward youtube he start juce before 20 now is in his 40 on trt and has less muscle than natural guy who train hard 10 years.....

 

[heyboy]

hormones is one thing but also the later you take ass the higher chances for build up your natural base most of the guys who take juice in their 20 or even before have almost nothing on their bodys and once they off usually end up with small amount of muscle and fock up endocr/system goood example is Jerry Ward youtube he start juce before 20 now is in his 40 on trt and has less muscle than natural guy who train hard 10 years.....

u ruin ur chances for more gains in the future when you take steroids to early?

if some guy used steroids from 20 to 25 (trained natural from 15-20), and another guy trained natural between 15-23 and used steroids at 23-25. who would be bigger at 25?

SAME GUY

 

[Rodja]

u ruin ur chances for more gains in the future when you take steroids to early?

if some guy used steroids from 20 to 25 (trained natural from 15-20), and another guy trained natural between 15-23 and used steroids at 23-25. who would be bigger at 25?

SAME GUY

How long have you been training? Whats your current training program/system?

 

[sespress]

u ruin ur chances for more gains in the future when you take steroids to early?

if some guy used steroids from 20 to 25 (trained natural from 15-20), and another guy trained natural between 15-23 and used steroids at 23-25. who would be bigger at 25?

SAME GUY

The same guy thing is just Not true at all. Depends on a lot, to many factors, but the guys training normally I think will lonely blow up faster when he starts his cycle than the other guy. He's got better muscle memory. I was generalizing before but generalizing on the safe side.

Also yes what we're saying is your gonna potentially (to some degree for sure) lower your t levels for good.

But hey you seen dead set on moving forwards. I'm a hard head too. You try it and get​all fukered up don't say AM didn't try to dissuade you. Really it's your balls bro do what you need, but instead of disputing information guys in the know toss at you you could shift gears into how to PCT correctly, how long and what to run, etc... As you will CERTAINLY miss something important first time regardless. I remember my mad dash for clomid coming off of sdrol cause I didn't know until my last week that was needed. Don't find yourself up craps Creek with a gyno issue cause it didn't stock up on real pharma PCT and AI meds.

And really Google more in regards.

 

[heyboy]

The same guy thing is just Not true at all. Depends on a lot, to many factors, but the guys training normally I think will lonely blow up faster when he starts his cycle than the other guy. He's got better muscle memory. I was generalizing before but generalizing on the safe side.

Also yes what we're saying is your gonna potentially (to some degree for sure) lower your t levels for good.

But hey you seen dead set on moving forwards. I'm a hard head too. You try it and get​all fukered up don't say AM didn't try to dissuade you. Really it's your balls bro do what you need, but instead of disputing information guys in the know toss at you you could shift gears into how to PCT correctly, how long and what to run, etc... As you will CERTAINLY miss something important first time regardless. I remember my mad dash for clomid coming off of sdrol cause I didn't know until my last week that was needed. Don't find yourself up craps Creek with a gyno issue cause it didn't stock up on real pharma PCT and AI meds.

And really Google more in regards.

what are you talking about, im not gonna do any steroids. im just doing research, my friend is doing steroids atm tho and hes not 25 yet.

im gonna wait til im 25 before using anything that would suppress my testosterone, i am however researching with gw-501516 and mk677



ive been training for about 7years with no long breaks

 

[Distilled Water]

I make better gains on TRT now than I did running designer things 7yrs ago.

Difference is now I know how to train and eat. Without question if I implemented then what I know now, I'd be in a better physical situation. Now when I jump back on I BLOW up like my first cycle. I've been cruising for about 13 weeks and am still sitting 212-214 with abs. I've been on about 26-28 weeks total over the past 18 months (78 weeks) and I'm still about 30lbs heavier and leaner than when I really started being 100% dialed in with everything.

 

[heyboy]

How long have you been training? Whats your current training program/system?

7years+

Day 1 chest/back
Day 2 Shoulders/arms
Day 3 Abs/cardio
Day 4 chest/triceps
Day 5 Back/biceps
Day 6 Abs/cardio
Day 7 Legs
im cutting atm, and its going very well so im not gonna change anything

im not planning on using any steroids btw

im using 20mg gw501516, 10mg mk677, 90mg laxogenin and BPS DCP fat burner

 

[Jebrook]

7years+

Day 1 chest/back
Day 2 Shoulders/arms
Day 3 Abs/cardio
Day 4 chest/triceps
Day 5 Back/biceps
Day 6 Abs/cardio
Day 7 Legs
im cutting atm, and its going very well so im not gonna change anything

im not planning on using any steroids btw

im using 20mg gw501516, 10mg mk677, 90mg laxogenin and BPS DCP fat burner

Why only one day for legs on a 7 day training split? Do you take 2-3 rest days after the 7 day split? Have you considered legs on Day 1 or 2? Training legs ilicits the largest CNS response and subsequent resulting increase in anabolism of all the muscle groups. It makes better sense to train them earlier in the split in order to give that group 100% effort.

 

[heyboy]

Why only one day for legs on a 7 day training split? Do you take 2-3 rest days after the 7 day split? Have you considered legs on Day 1 or 2? Training legs ilicits the largest CNS response and subsequent resulting increase in anabolism of all the muscle groups. It makes better sense to train them earlier in the split in order to give that group 100% effort.

cus it works for me

 

[heyboy]

Why only one day for legs on a 7 day training split? Do you take 2-3 rest days after the 7 day split? Have you considered legs on Day 1 or 2? Training legs ilicits the largest CNS response and subsequent resulting increase in anabolism of all the muscle groups. It makes better sense to train them earlier in the split in order to give that group 100% effort.

cus it works for me

 

[Rodja]

7years+

Day 1 chest/back
Day 2 Shoulders/arms
Day 3 Abs/cardio
Day 4 chest/triceps
Day 5 Back/biceps
Day 6 Abs/cardio
Day 7 Legs
im cutting atm, and its going very well so im not gonna change anything

im not planning on using any steroids btw

im using 20mg gw501516, 10mg mk677, 90mg laxogenin and BPS DCP fat burner

That's not a training system. That's just a group of muscles and train your legs more than your biceps. That's just embarrassing.

 

[Nac]

...and on the 7th day, heyboy trained te legz

 

[heyboy]

...and on the 7th day, heyboy trained te legz

yepp haha

 

[Rodja]

cus it works for me

Doubt it. You don't have a system in place for training. Do you really expect to be where you want to be without a plan?

 

[heyboy]

Doubt it. You don't have a system in place for training. Do you really expect to be where you want to be without a plan?

i am where i want to be, im doing great

if things werent going good i would change it, and i will change it when i finish my cut. if it aint broke dont fix it

 

[Rodja]

i am where i want to be, im doing great

if things werent going good i would change it, and i will change it when i finish my cut. if it aint broke dont fix it

If it's going so great, then why are you running a bunch of designer crap right now? Or, since you're running a bunch of designer crap right now, why don't you have a more intricate and thought out training system?

The point I'm trying to reach is that you're already using a bunch of designer **** and haven't put nearly as much time and effort into your training. 7 years of training isn't nearly as much as you think it is and no well thought out system has greater frequency of biceps than legs.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

If it's going so great, then why are you running a bunch of designer crap right now? Or, since you're running a bunch of designer crap right now, why don't you have a more intricate and thought out training system?

The point I'm trying to reach is that you're already using a bunch of designer **** and haven't put nearly as much time and effort into your training. 7 years of training isn't nearly as much as you think it is and no well thought out system has greater frequency of biceps than legs.

 

[heyboy]

If it's going so great, then why are you running a bunch of designer crap right now? Or, since you're running a bunch of designer crap right now, why don't you have a more intricate and thought out training system?

The point I'm trying to reach is that you're already using a bunch of designer **** and haven't put nearly as much time and effort into your training. 7 years of training isn't nearly as much as you think it is and no well thought out system has greater frequency of biceps than legs.

thanks, i know what works for me.. i honnestly care more about my biceps than my legs

 

[Rodja]

thanks, i know what works for me.. i honnestly care more about my biceps than my legs

Kids these days...

 

[heyboy]

Kids these days...

I was just a goofy little funny kid, who was always getting sent to the principal. It wasn't serious because I was smart. I wasn't like a true troublemaker, just rambunctious - like, talkative and trying to be funny. That was me in middle-school.

 

[BennyMagoo79]

u ruin ur chances for more gains in the future when you take steroids to early?

if some guy used steroids from 20 to 25 (trained natural from 15-20), and another guy trained natural between 15-23 and used steroids at 23-25. who would be bigger at 25?

SAME GUY

The real questions are, who is bigger when they are 40?

And who is still alive at 70.

 

[Justlooking5]

Here's my opinion on the gear at under 25 vs waiting debate based on my own experience:

I felt like I maxed out 70-80% of my natural gains before I started gear. Although it's a bit confused because I did the 4-AD prohormone and bulked up to 195 6' before my first actual cycle. It was hard as hell to gain size though despite my being extremely dedicated to training and eating well.

My guess is that if I had stayed natty until age 25 (including never doing prohormones) I probably would have gotten up to MAYBE 200-210 max by then with arms less than 17" cold.

Because I did do multiple cycles in those days (and of course at that age it was prime for optimal training - younger, better recovery, more free time), I got pretty big and made a lot of good progress with only 4 major cycles (i.e., 1. test/deca/dbol, 2. 850mg test E only 3. 150mg test 600 deca 600 eq humalog pwo 10iu or less, and 4. test 6-850 week, dbol, turinabol) and several smaller cycles of anavar only.

Much of the muscle I gained during those years I have been able to gain back after off periods, and prior to starting TRT last week I have been between 215-220 at around 13% bf by caliper with 17 inch arms unpumped and about 17.25 pumped. I've been training pretty intensely the past two years so it took this long to get back to this point, though most of my progress occurred in 2015.

My strength has been mediocre though, perhaps in part due to being low T this entire time. Ex, I read one of my old posts on Anafit where after doing 10-15mg anavar only for 11 months (forgot I stayed on anavar that long lol) I was quite strong doing 120 lbs. dumbbells for chest x 12-15, 90 lbs db shoulder press 12-15, and squatting 340 x 20 straight no pausing.

Now even though I have much of my muscle from back then I'm only hitting 225 x 4 on bench, shoulder pressing 65-70 lbs db for 6-8, doing rack deads with 295 (though easily), etc.

So with low T it's been easier for me to gain my muscle back then strength, and I'm hoping that now that I have started TRT my strength will improve.

TLDR: Is it worth it to start AAS prior to age 25? Well, it's a tradeoff I think. I made way better gains by doing so because I was most passionate about training at that age, and had a lot of free time to dedicate to training.

However, I also likely messed up my endocrine system in that I wound up with permanent suppression w/ ED, mood issues, fatigue, anxiety, and a pretty hefty amount of misery from low T.

Now, would I have been able to avoid permanent suppression if I had waited until the of 25? I'm not sure, but I actually kind of doubt it from all the reading I've done. You could also argue that under 25 your natural t levels should rebound most resilently. In fact, I never noticed significant suppression from any of my cycles until the last one I did at age 24. I bounced back from the other ones I did when younger much better.

Yet, if I had waited, I might have become more responsible. Your brain does keep developing until about 25 particularly the with respect to making good decisions vs. impulsivity and not thinking about consequences. So perhaps the main benefit of waiting until 25 would be acting more responsibly - but that doesn't mean your endocrine system still won't get suppressed.

It's really an individual decision depending on your goals, but my best subjective advice would be that whenever you do cycle if ever:

1. Avoid harsh suppressing AAS like deca/tren
2. Use moderate dosages for shorter periods of time (say test/anavar) and do PCT with clomid and HCG preferably
3. Be aware that regardless of your age you may wind up needing TRT to maintain healthy test levels EVEN IF you do short cycles, good PCT, and wait until you're older.

 

[Justlooking5]

The real questions are, who is bigger when they are 40?

And who is still alive at 70.

I'm not sure there's any evidence to suggest that doing AAS under age 25 is more dangerous than doing it when older, or that the guy who waits will necessarily be bigger. I actually think it's probably safer to do real cycles under 25 when you are at your healthiest, and you can put on a lot of muscle during that time frame also because you likely have more time to train/eat. Whether you will be more suppressed doing AAS prior to 25 or after 25 is speculative and has not been studied as far as I know.

 

[DemntedCowboy]

There isn't an exact age were we all stop developing and growing because this is determined by our genes and DNA, we are all genetically programmed individually and we inherit our genes from our parents. To give an exact age we stop growing would be incorrect because everyone's genetic blueprint is different.The main development of our bodies is up to the age of 21yrs of age but this can vary between individuals. There are parts of our bodies what carry on developing and adjusting slowly up until the age of 25yrs old, an example of this is the brain. The Endocrine system is a part of the brain what is very complex and keeps our bodies in a homeostasis state. Our testosterone levels start raising and roughly peak around 25yrs old and then start to slowly decline, so even though some of us may have stopped growing at the age of 21yrs old, others may still be developing up until the age of 25yrs old.*

Having recently spoken to an Endo he says that the HPTA is very sensitive and as many pathways how it regulates the human body, he states steroids disrupt the normal balance of hormones in the body which can cause reversible and irreversible changes at any age but risks are far more if you administrate exogenous androgens during development, this will put you in a very unnatural environment at a crucial time and your hormones should be treated with care especially in the early stages of maturity. The adverse effects can be erratic behaviour of the HPTA and potentially therapy when your older.*

Most endocrinologist suggest full maturation is reached by 25 years of age and this would also give the HPTA time to be established with your natural hormone balance and patterns. 24-25yrs old would be an ideal starting point to get bloodwork drawn to see exact what your natural levels are before starting any kind of cycles and waiting till you have reach your testosterone peak would be a good starting point. Obviously it isn't going to be all 19- 21yr old bodybuilders who suffer side effects what are irreversible but I would edge on the side of caution what age I advise.*

 

[sespress]

The real questions are, who is bigger when they are 40?

And who is still alive at 70.

Cheers to that.

Hormone imbalance is going to age you out earlyish, and you'll feel like piss, and you'll probably piss everyone off around you bc your mood will be jacked up.

I think of PCT and how much like poop I feel and can't imagine that all the time or worse - a total T flatline... you read the help me posts with guys that have really really low T and are struggling with TRT availability, price, or just dial in the right dose gets tough for some fellas. There's the sides, prospect of shooting up To for the rest of your life, and finally with the way the current medical system is heading basically everything that could go wrong with you will be a pre-existing condition.

Imagine being a 40 yo dude with hot flashes. Hypothetical yes, wild speculation, maybe - but not out of the realm of possibility.

 

[sespress]

I'm not sure there's any evidence to suggest that doing AAS under age 25 is more dangerous than doing it when older, or that the guy who waits will necessarily be bigger. I actually think it's probably safer to do real cycles under 25 when you are at your healthiest, and you can put on a lot of muscle during that time frame also because you likely have more time to train/eat. Whether you will be more suppressed doing AAS prior to 25 or after 25 is speculative and has not been studied as far as I know.

But really is that trade off (hypothetical trade off) really worth it?

There's never going to be good studies on something like this all we have is anecdotal evidence so if you have to choose why not choose to wait a little while and be potentially safer?

My first cycle was round 25 or 26 and I gained incredible size very quickly... but being young I also wasn't really prepared for PCT and it was really rough since then I've gotten a lot better this but still I do have somewhat lowish T numbers even though I do not have any symptoms of low T

 

[heyboy]

Cheers to that.

Hormone imbalance is going to age you out earlyish, and you'll feel like piss, and you'll probably piss everyone off around you bc your mood will be jacked up.

I think of PCT and how much like poop I feel and can't imagine that all the time or worse - a total T flatline... you read the help me posts with guys that have really really low T and are struggling with TRT availability, price, or just dial in the right dose gets tough for some fellas. There's the sides, prospect of shooting up To for the rest of your life, and finally with the way the current medical system is heading basically everything that could go wrong with you will be a pre-existing condition.

Imagine being a 40 yo dude with hot flashes. Hypothetical yes, wild speculation, maybe - but not out of the realm of possibility.

if you get hormonal imbalances at an early age from testosterone, how long will that last?

 

[sespress]

if you get hormonal imbalances at an early age from testosterone, how long will that last?

Potentially forever, that's what we're ring to say. Can't be certain it'll happen at all but if it does it may not be reversable.

 

[heyboy]

Potentially forever, that's what we're ring to say. Can't be certain it'll happen at all but if it does it may not be reversable.

the risk of getting hormonal imbalances is alot higher when your younger and use AAS than older?
at what age does this risk become lower? (recommended age)

 

[BamBam0319]

the risk of getting hormonal imbalances is alot higher when your younger and use AAS than older?
at what age does this risk become lower? (recommended age)

At exactly 24 years and 7 months of age.

 

[heyboy]

At exactly 24 years and 7 months of age.

lol, i guess its different for everyone

 

[DemntedCowboy]

See my post at #33

 

[BamBam0319]

...