No Excuses & No ***** ***: A Stupid People's Guide to PCT

[meridian]

SERMS Cortisol

Okay. So why would someone run Clomid (SERM) with Torem (SERM) for PCT?

Is it okay for a PCT to include Torem (SERM) + a cortisol control like Lean Xtreme, Reduce, Retain, Restore? (are they all the same for cortisol control?)

Would Formastane be used in PCT in place or in addition to the above? Or should it just be used on cycle with Test e?

Thanks for any expert advice

 

[comacho]

im not fully convinced that exogenous androgen will make your endo androgen go up, that does not make any sense, i need to see some studies to belive that one.

i could see estro being elevated from non aroma aas but not in all cases, have you tried halo or winny before? did you get bloated off those too? if you did, you got faked.

good example will be anadrol vs halo or winny,,,big difference although chemically they shouldnt aromatize.

also, when people say ball size during PCT and T level aren't related is BS, your testes make T, thats its main job, its like saying oh i have high T although i just castrated myself.

your nuts shrink (dose dependent) on exo andro because it has stopped making your own T. IF exo made your endo T go up, then why do we need hcg, SERM, and other chemicals for PCT, all we would need is AI.

shutdown usually occurs after 2 weeks of use

 

[thesinner]

by what mechanism? I see that on labels sure, but don't understand how or quite believe it. Other than by binding with the ARs so that the test has nowhere to go, but that seems like it would be minimal effect. its not like 1-t is going to convert to testosterone.

Accumulation. And the test has somewhere to go, it's called another AR, the 5-alpha-reductase, aromatase, or 17-dehydroxylase to name a few.

Activation of AR's is mediated by the serum concentration of active androgens. The rate law of any reaction is mediated via probability, so the more androgens in a EasyEJL, the more likely one of them finds an AR. By taking steroids, you are attempting to increase serum androgens in attempt to increase activation of AR's.....in attempt to build muscle.

Sure, 1-T might have a higher anabolic ratio than normal testosterone, but we're really comparing apples to oranges. It's still gotta make it's way to the AR to do it's thang. In the meantime, I don't know about you, but I'm all for my natural testosterone, DHT, and Estrogens to go about activating AR's and ER's and making me happy.

 

[EasyEJL]

hmmm I need to read more about that. somehow it just seems counterintuitive that natural test would go up at all while you are on an exogenous androgen. I'd rather the natural testosterone do its thing too, unfortunately i'm kind of light in that area. 20 years of being overweight, eating wrong, drinking too much alchohol and not exercising does that to you, beyond just what time does. I'm pondering going with 2-3 bottles of primal male.

 

[dmangiarelli]

hmmm I need to read more about that. somehow it just seems counterintuitive that natural test would go up at all while you are on an exogenous androgen. I'd rather the natural testosterone do its thing too, unfortunately i'm kind of light in that area. 20 years of being overweight, eating wrong, drinking too much alchohol and not exercising does that to you, beyond just what time does. I'm pondering going with 2-3 bottles of primal male.

I'm with you on this one bro!

Bob, how does endogenous test rise when you introduce exogenous test? If I'm not mistaken introducing exogenous test causes the body to shutdown its own production through the negative feedback loop. Test is perceived to be high due to exogenous test binding to AR's and free test becoming extremely high.

 

[thesinner]

I'm with you on this one bro!

Bob, how does endogenous test rise when you introduce exogenous test? If I'm not mistaken introducing exogenous test causes the body to shutdown its own production through the negative feedback loop. Test is perceived to be high due to exogenous test binding to AR's and free test becoming extremely high.

You are actually right on the money and don't realize it. I don't think I said endogenous testosterone rises, but rather, it keeps coming, and is now coupled with exogeneous testosterone.

I think one thing to understand that production *slows* as the cycle continues. It does not stop like a car at a red light.

Stop thinking linearly everyone!!!!!

Androgen + AR -> desired reaction is a second order reaction, which means it functions via a logistic curve; therefore, test suppression functions approaching asymptote (asymptote of zero, not really surprising, is it?). Probably another reason why we focus on half-lives of steroids (experimentally determined summation of consumption rates of the various metabolic pathways expressed in a logarithmic parameter). In theory, you never stop producing testosterone; however, continuously produce less and less and less as the cycle continues, which eventually rounds down to zero. At this point (or thereabouts), you're body has become tolerant to the steroid, and you're not going to make any noticeable gains. Ever wonder why you cycle them?

 

[strategicmove]

Great thread! :thumbsup:

 

[dmangiarelli]

You are actually right on the money and don't realize it. I don't think I said endogenous testosterone rises, but rather, it keeps coming, and is now coupled with exogeneous testosterone.

I think one thing to understand that production *slows* as the cycle continues. It does not stop like a car at a red light.

Stop thinking linearly everyone!!!!!

Androgen + AR -> desired reaction is a second order reaction, which means it functions via a logistic curve; therefore, test suppression functions approaching asymptote (asymptote of zero, not really surprising, is it?). Probably another reason why we focus on half-lives of steroids (experimentally determined summation of consumption rates of the various metabolic pathways expressed in a logarithmic parameter). In theory, you never stop producing testosterone; however, continuously produce less and less and less as the cycle continues, which eventually rounds down to zero. At this point (or thereabouts), you're body has become tolerant to the steroid, and you're not going to make any noticeable gains. Ever wonder why you cycle them?

That is all great! What about the difference with aromatizing (desoxymethyltestosterone for example) and non-aromatizing (1,4AD Bold 200) compounds and how they affect estrogen levels? If (exogenous ) test is perceived to be high, even a non aromatizing compound would cause free T levels (due to the steroid binding to the AR's and not T) to be high so wouldn't aromatization still be a concern? The body would produce more estrogen since it thinks T levels are high?

I am going out on a limb here as I don't fully understand this so forgive my ignorant line of questioning

 

[thesinner]

It can be. Also keep in mind that most non-aromatizing steroids are 5-alpha-reduced, which (in most cases) can make them a little anti-estrogenic, as we see with drostanolone, mesterolone, epithiostanol, epithiomesterolone, and just straight DHT.

Also, I think you've got your aromatizing/non-aromatizing steroids mixed up. 1,4AD will aromatize and Madol (not having a 4-ene) will not.

It's all good, buddy. The fact that this kinda stuff happens is an often overlooked concept, that even I have a tendency to make.

Just remember. AR's want lovin' and they don't care where they get it from!! As long as there's a shred of test still coursing your veins, it's gonna bind to the nearest receptor or enzyme it can find.

 

[dmangiarelli]

It can be. Also keep in mind that most non-aromatizing steroids are 5-alpha-reduced, which (in most cases) can make them a little anti-estrogenic, as we see with drostanolone, mesterolone, epithiostanol, epithiomesterolone, and just straight DHT.

Also, I think you've got your aromatizing/non-aromatizing steroids mixed up. 1,4AD will aromatize and Madol (not having a 4-ene) will not.

Hmmm ... Yes MADOL is a progestin so that was a bad example. In the Bold guide on bb.com VT says it does not aromatize but in the store the description says otherwise.

"This naturally occurring compound is a direct precursor to Boldenone, a derivative of testosterone. 1,4AD BOLD is an extremely effective aid for increasing receptor activation and initiating the muscle tissue rebuilding process that yields solid gains in lean muscle mass. The 1,4AD BOLD compound has a very high level of bioavailability with a majority of the chemical passing through the liver without being deactivated by 17-ketosteroid. The potential conversion rate to estrogen is favorable for increasing tissue growth and repair, but minimal enough that very little noted side effects occur such as increased body fat, gynecomastia, or water retention.

Thanks for clearing that up. So after a let's say Havoc cycle, would your Estrogen levels be higher or lower? or does it depend on the person taking it and what their sensitivity to the AI properties of the compound are? I found that when I took Methyl-e I really didn't lean out that much but gained a good bit of BF around my midsection. Could have been the enormous amount of calories (4000) I was consuming as well. My last cycle I was around 3000-3500/day and pretty much maintained BF while adding mass. That was a Bold/P-Plex/Trena cycle for 8 weeks.

 

[thesinner]

yes, 1,4 steroids aromatize quite well. That's actually the reason ATD and Exemstane are such potent AI's. The 1-ene lowers the selectivity with other enzymes, such as 5AR; therefore, the probability of binding to aromatase would therefore increase.

Epistane would definitely be user dependant. It's touted to reduce gyno; however, there's some people who have gotten "gyno" from it. (Although I'm convinced there's an epidemic of gyno paranoia with new steroid users)

 

[Force of Green]

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I wouldn't trust a claim of a designer steroid to reduce gyno.

 

[dmangiarelli]

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I wouldn't trust a claim of a designer steroid to reduce gyno.

Werd!

 

[comacho]

You are actually right on the money and don't realize it. I don't think I said endogenous testosterone rises, but rather, it keeps coming, and is now coupled with exogeneous testosterone.

I think one thing to understand that production *slows* as the cycle continues. It does not stop like a car at a red light.

Stop thinking linearly everyone!!!!!

Androgen + AR -> desired reaction is a second order reaction, which means it functions via a logistic curve; therefore, test suppression functions approaching asymptote (asymptote of zero, not really surprising, is it?). Probably another reason why we focus on half-lives of steroids (experimentally determined summation of consumption rates of the various metabolic pathways expressed in a logarithmic parameter). In theory, you never stop producing testosterone; however, continuously produce less and less and less as the cycle continues, which eventually rounds down to zero. At this point (or thereabouts), you're body has become tolerant to the steroid, and you're not going to make any noticeable gains. Ever wonder why you cycle them?

hi Bob,

why would you not making any more gains? is the body reducing ARs?

not all people cycle to get the most out of it, some people stay on years, because although you are not making gains compared to the beginning of the cycle you are still making more gains than being not on.....sorry if that sounds confusing but what im saying is if i was on for 1g of test for 2 years, the gains ive made after 1 year is probalby more than what i would have done naturally without 1g of extra test. meaning you are still making gains.

because it sounded like you are saying once your natural test stops your gains will stop....eh maybe maybe not, there are many different chemicals out there with different activity potential. Plus i think your natty test 'slows' to almost to zero pretty fast, faster than what people think. well i guess thats dosage and chemical dependent too.

 

[Force of Green]

hi Bob,

why would you not making any more gains? is the body reducing ARs?

not all people cycle to get the most out of it, some people stay on years, because although you are not making gains compared to the beginning of the cycle you are still making more gains than being not on.....sorry if that sounds confusing but what im saying is if i was on for 1g of test for 2 years, the gains ive made after 1 year is probalby more than what i would have done naturally without 1g of extra test. meaning you are still making gains.

because it sounded like you are saying once your natural test stops your gains will stop....eh maybe maybe not, there are many different chemicals out there with different activity potential. Plus i think your natty test 'slows' to almost to zero pretty fast, faster than what people think. well i guess thats dosage and chemical dependent too.

Your body compensates with SHBG and will render a lot of testosterone inactive.
I knew a guy who was on test e for almost a couple years without cycling it and eventually his body stopped responding to it... It was at the point where he could inject 1000mg of test prop and still get nothing.... Go he started taking Growth Hormone to give his body a rest from the roids.

 

[Shakka1975]

how should lean extreme be dosed in pct? do i take it alongside with pcs or wait and how should it be dosed.

 

[dmangiarelli]

how should lean extreme be dosed in pct? do i take it alongside with pcs or wait and how should it be dosed.

Add it at the start of week three (day 15) and run 3 caps/day. One upon rising, one at noon and one before bed or after dinner ...

 

[ManBeast]

Great thread!

MB

 

[TheNEwBreed]

sinner when you talk about SERMS you use the reference to using them in 4 week cycle as 40/40/20/20 call me stupid but are you saying start offf taking 40 for the first 2 weeks then down to 20 the last two?

 

[TerribleTowel]

sinner when you talk about SERMS you use the reference to using them in 4 week cycle as 40/40/20/20 call me stupid but are you saying start offf taking 40 for the first 2 weeks then down to 20 the last two?

40 mg per day for the first two weeks and 20 mg a day for the next two weeks

 

[psychobabble]

sinner when you talk about SERMS you use the reference to using them in 4 week cycle as 40/40/20/20 call me stupid but are you saying start offf taking 40 for the first 2 weeks then down to 20 the last two?

yup i believe thats wha he meant

 

[Force of Green]

This is good for Nolva, no doubt.

 

[delsolrob]

I thin we need to bump this.

any chance we can get this stickied? I think that would solve some of the questions on here.

 

[Force of Green]

I thin we need to bump this.

any chance we can get this stickied? I think that would solve some of the questions on here.

Good call!

 

[delsolrob]

yeah, I'm tired of searching for this thread whenever I need to point someone in the right direction for educating themselves on PCT.

 

[Force of Green]

yeah, I'm tired of searching for this thread whenever I need to point someone in the right direction for educating themselves on PCT.

What question do you have? Maybe I can help.

 

[delsolrob]

Thanks FOG, but I don't have the question...I refer others to this thread when I don't feel like typing up all the information...they can find it here. (noobs that keep asking the same questions)

 

[Force of Green]

Thanks FOG, but I don't have the question...I refer others to this thread when I don't feel like typing up all the information...they can find it here. (noobs that keep asking the same questions)

Yeah man, I hear you!

ex. "Should I dose an AI with a SERM during PCT? Is Novedex XT the same as Nolvadex?"

lol

 

[atnartist]

Like you guys were always sooo smart. All those muscles and still not strong enough to be nice? You guys rock, I hope to grow up and be just like you. bla , bla, bla.....

 

[delsolrob]

Like you guys were always sooo smart. All those muscles and still not strong enough to be nice? You guys rock, I hope to grow up and be just like you. bla , bla, bla.....

lol, I don't know what you're refering to? I don't see any coments that were made by FOG or myself that weren't "nice"...only that we see a lot of the same questions over and over again. We obviously help a lot of people, I was trying to get this thread bumped so that it could benefit more people...so, I don't understand your disposition.

I refer a lot of people to this thread because it's just not feasible to retype all this information everytime someone new comes on here asking a question...

 

[EasyEJL]

but theres a difference between being nice, and having to hold someone's hand. anyone should make their best effort to understand what it is they are putting into their mouth, all the more so the greater the claims of what the product will do. You really shouldn't ingest something that you have no idea what it is. And with the internet, its pretty easy to get information, unlike 20 years ago.

When the doctor gives me a prescription, I read the pamphlet and info on it, and usually look it up online to read about interactions and sides.

 

[stxnas]

I hate holding hands...my palms always get all sweaty! :run:

 

[Force of Green]

Like you guys were always sooo smart. All those muscles and still not strong enough to be nice? You guys rock, I hope to grow up and be just like you. bla , bla, bla.....

Take some SAMe and stop being a smart-ass

 

[thesinner]

Like you guys were always sooo smart. All those muscles and still not strong enough to be nice? You guys rock, I hope to grow up and be just like you. bla , bla, bla.....

Strength occurs independently of kindness.

You will take honest advice regardless of whether or not it's perceivably rude, or you will not take the advice at all; thereby, facing whatever the consequences may be for not accepting said advice. Either way, I'm sure you'll agree that you've gotten what you paid for.

In the event English is your 4th or 5th language, and you are perhaps still learning; then, I should perhaps take this as a compliment, in which case thank you for your kind words.

 

[bdpeck]

nolva w/ igf-1

hey so i have been asking around and i cant get a good answer...is it a waste of time to do igf-1 while on nolvadex?

 

[thesinner]

hey so i have been asking around and i cant get a good answer...is it a waste of time to do igf-1 while on nolvadex?

Tamoxifen (nolvadex) decreases natural production of IGF-1; thereby, lowering serum concentration.

Injecting IGF-1, of course, increases serum concentrations. While it dampens natural production, the serum increase makes this negligable.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Did you just learn to use semi-colons sinner?

 

[thesinner]

I have this habit of stringing paragraphs together using conjunctions and semicolons.

I would like to think I am a seasoned "semi-coloner"

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I have this habit of stringing paragraphs together using conjunctions and semicolons.

I would like to think I am a seasoned "semi-coloner"

No, that was the joke I was making.

Seems as if it was your first day with conjunctive clauses and you were going crazy.

 

[EasyEJL]

perhaps you just need a colon cleansing

 

[thesinner]

perhaps you just need a colon cleansing

Semi-colon, thank you very much.

 

[bdpeck]

so its not a waste of time?? im sorry im kinda slow. lol.

 

[thesinner]

so its not a waste of time?? im sorry im kinda slow. lol.

Tamoxifen will not have a noticeable effect on injectable IGF-LR3.

 

[EasyEJL]

hey sinner, have you read anything on the positive interactions of using both nolva and formestane at the same time? someone posted a link to a study on it where they worked (sigh) synergystically requiring a much lower dose of both when used together

 

[thesinner]

Have not read much on this, but it kinda make sense.

We're trying to prevent estrogen from binding to certain ER's in the brain, in order to signal an amplified androgen release.

Blocking the receptors, as well as lowering the conversion rate will cause for the same thing: less estrogens binding to ER's.

What's the sigh for? Are you as sick of hearing the word "synergistic" as the rest of us?

 

[EasyEJL]

yeah, its a pity, the word seems to need a "no really, I mean it" after it or something...

 

[bdpeck]

super..haha. thanks for the info sinner.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Stupid People's Guide to Gynecomastia Diagnosis:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/97254-if-you-think.html

 

[Jtrain84]

this is probably a stupid question but is a SERM, a Cortisol blocker, and a test booster all necessary for a 4 week cycle of Winstrol at 50 mg every other day???

 

[rmani]

guys can you link me to where i can buy PCT products? I look in the store and don't know what to buy