L-norvaline could be harmful to brain cells

[AdelV]

This came up on my newsfeed

https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/bodybuilding-supplement-norvaline-found-to-be-harmful/10800990

 

[AdelV]

I also noticed
https://www.9news.com.au/2019/02/10/21/36/60-minutes-health-supplements-green-tea-could-cause-liver-failure

The video is interesting, apparently they found animal by-products in supplements. If you watch it, they also mention in the Chinese herbal products they found ephedrine, pharmaceuticals, steroids in 90%

This actually happened in my city/state. I know where that store is, definitely keen on some ephedrine ������

 

[HIT4ME]

I also saw the norvaline thing. It seems very interesting since cardiovascular health is important to having good mental health, and I thought norvaline was often prescribed for endothelial health. Haven't had time to look into it all...I may have had a misimderstanding.

 

[aaronuconn]

I don’t know why Norvaline still finds its way in supplements anyways.

https://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/235003-coops-corner-2-a.html

 

[HIT4ME]

I don’t know why Norvaline still finds its way in supplements anyways.

https://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/235003-coops-corner-2-a.html

Well, that thread explains some uses for it. It should increase pumps by inhibiting arginase (the enzyme that breaks down arginine). People take arginine, citrulline and agmatine because of Nitric Oxide. Arginase inhibition would allow those things to stay in the system for longer because the enzyme that breaks them down is imhibited.

It may also have some use in things like Alzheimer's, infections and cardiovascular disease based on this inhibition.

But, it seems like its use may be more appropriate in a diseased state.

 

[aaronuconn]

Well, that thread explains some uses for it. It should increase pumps by inhibiting arginase (the enzyme that breaks down arginine). People take arginine, citrulline and agmatine because of Nitric Oxide. Arginase inhibition would allow those things to stay in the system for longer because the enzyme that breaks them down is imhibited.

It may also have some use in things like Alzheimer's, infections and cardiovascular disease based on this inhibition.

But, it seems like its use may be more appropriate in a diseased state.

The overall conclusion, though, is that it’s relatively useless in healthy humans (as you alluded to). Really shouldn’t be included in future formulations IMO

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I also noticed
https://www.9news.com.au/2019/02/10/21/36/60-minutes-health-supplements-green-tea-could-cause-liver-failure

The video is interesting, apparently they found animal by-products in supplements. If you watch it, they also mention in the Chinese herbal products they found ephedrine, pharmaceuticals, steroids in 90%

This actually happened in my city/state. I know where that store is, definitely keen on some ephedrine

Isn’t that the same article/report that claimed some supplements had Snow Leopard in them lol? I’m highly skeptical of that one-off unsubstantiated report unless/until it is actually published as a case report.

From the makers of Sex Panther, Odeon presents its foray into the realm of health supplements; SNOW LEOPARD. Illegal in nine counties, and made with bits of real snow leopard, so you know it’s good.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Cooper has been saying it’s useless in healthy humans and potentially bad at higher doses for years now. No reason at all to use it really.

 

[AdelV]

Isn’t that the same article/report that claimed some supplements had Snow Leopard in them lol? I’m highly skeptical of that one-off unsubstantiated report unless/until it is actually published as a case report.

From the makers of Sex Panther, Odeon presents its foray into the realm of health supplements; SNOW LEOPARD. Illegal in nine counties, and made with bits of real snow leopard, so you know it’s good.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-10/traditional-chinese-medicines-dangerous-chemical-contaminants/7015534

Found it from 2015, apparently it was a combined study between 2 Australian Universities

 

[sns8778]

I also saw the norvaline thing. It seems very interesting since cardiovascular health is important to having good mental health, and I thought norvaline was often prescribed for endothelial health. Haven't had time to look into it all...I may have had a misimderstanding.

These were my thoughts as well. There seems to have been so many studies over the years showing benefits to Norvaline that it seems like if that study were legitimate that this type of information would have been seen a long time ago in other studies.

From what I've seen, many of the Norvaline studies for cardiovascular benefits were done in people with cardiovascular issues but logic would seem that that group would be even more at risk to potential side effects of use and if none were found in those groups, it makes me more skeptical.

I don’t know why Norvaline still finds its way in supplements anyways.

https://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/235003-coops-corner-2-a.html

Cooper did a great job of laying out some science on Norvaline. However, as you know, in today's world you can generally find studies to support or go against just about anything. I think the thing that's kept Norvaline around (in addition to the positive studies for cardiovascular benefits) is that it really does work great for many people.

I remember many years ago, I used something with Norvaline in it and was so surprised at how well it worked and wanted to see if it was actually the Norvaline so I bought Norvaline by NOW Foods to try it out and see. It worked really well for pumps (especially compared to other ingredients from the time period bc this was a long time ago) and also provided a noticeable effect in other areas.

The overall conclusion, though, is that it’s relatively useless in healthy humans (as you alluded to). Really shouldn’t be included in future formulations IMO

I'm legitimately curious on how the Norvaline discussion plays out and the validity/details of the study that got the debate started on it. Some of the wording I am seeing be quoted in articles related to this is very vague and the researchers have made statements or statements have been attributed to them that aren't just about norvaline but also about protein and other amino acids. There has been some research on the protective effects of Norvaline on certain aspects of brain health. It would be interesting to see if any of the places doing articles on this rather than just repeat each others articles would reach out to any of those researchers for comment.

This puts companies in an interesting position because some of the best selling pre-workout and pump products on he market from major brands include Norvaline including Primeval Labs, Ghost, Controlled Labs, and more.

 

[HIT4ME]

These were my thoughts as well. There seems to have been so many studies over the years showing benefits to Norvaline that it seems like if that study were legitimate that this type of information would have been seen a long time ago in other studies.

From what I've seen, many of the Norvaline studies for cardiovascular benefits were done in people with cardiovascular issues but logic would seem that that group would be even more at risk to potential side effects of use and if none were found in those groups, it makes me more skeptical.



Cooper did a great job of laying out some science on Norvaline. However, as you know, in today's world you can generally find studies to support or go against just about anything. I think the thing that's kept Norvaline around (in addition to the positive studies for cardiovascular benefits) is that it really does work great for many people.

I remember many years ago, I used something with Norvaline in it and was so surprised at how well it worked and wanted to see if it was actually the Norvaline so I bought Norvaline by NOW Foods to try it out and see. It worked really well for pumps (especially compared to other ingredients from the time period bc this was a long time ago) and also provided a noticeable effect in other areas.




I'm legitimately curious on how the Norvaline discussion plays out and the validity/details of the study that got the debate started on it. Some of the wording I am seeing be quoted in articles related to this is very vague and the researchers have made statements or statements have been attributed to them that aren't just about norvaline but also about protein and other amino acids. There has been some research on the protective effects of Norvaline on certain aspects of brain health. It would be interesting to see if any of the places doing articles on this rather than just repeat each others articles would reach out to any of those researchers for comment.

This puts companies in an interesting position because some of the best selling pre-workout and pump products on he market from major brands include Norvaline including Primeval Labs, Ghost, Controlled Labs, and more.

I would say that the logic that cardiovascular patients may be more prone to the side effects is reasonable but may be incorrect.

Arginase has been recently implicated in Alzheimer's disease - which hasn't gained as much traction as I think it should. This implicates alzheimers as having ties to immune responses and this disease could actually be caused by an infection. This connection is backed by ither studies that show that the plaques found in AD patients have protective effects against infections and that mant elderly patients who have no signs of dementia have these same plaques in their brains. Further, a recent study has tied AD to gingivitis.

It seems that many viruses and bacteria over express arginase as a means of crippling our immune system.

Sorry for the tangent, but what does this all have to do with anything? It implies that people who have poorer health probably have more arginase in their system - dropping to normal levels likely improves health - but someone who is normal that drops it too much may have issues.

Obviously some leaps of logic going on in all that...I got nothin'.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Or it’s normalizing something in a particular population, and acting further than that could be undesirable in healthy subjects? Not that I’m saying this is the case here, but the logic you used isn’t inherently solid is my point.

 

[sns8778]

^^^ Major props on the statement about Alzheimer's possibly being related to immune responses and that it could possibly be caused by infections. I saw something interesting awhile back about an Alzheimer's researcher saying that in 50 years what we call Alzheimer's today may turn out to be several different conditions with different underlying or root causes. Admittedly, the advanced part of his science discussion on it was way over my head but I found it very interesting.

For the part where I said that cardiovascular subjects seemed like they may be more susceptible to side effects I was paraphrasing some. In addition to just cardiovascular subjects, I was looking at information about arginase inhibitors being studied on people with TBI's, stroke patients, etc. so my general thought was just that in the populations that these have been studied on, its hard to fathom one study from Australia where the researchers one moment are saying Norvaline but then in interviews are putting down increased protein intake in general, being more significant than studies being done on these particular populations. Sorry if I came off confusing on that; my post was more just me kind of thinking out loud than being super technical.

I really do wish that the people doing the interviews with these researchers had done more actual investigative reporting and reached out to researchers from other studies to get their opinions on the subject. Being that the study was conducted in Australia, it will also be interesting to see if there is a government response because their government is very 'ban friendly' towards supplements.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Are there even any positive studies for pumps/endurance/etc. in healthy subjects? I just don’t see the risk/reward balance being too good if there’s no actual studies showing it works in healthy humans, at least/especially if there are studies showing it doesn’t. If there are just no studies in healthy humans at all, then it’s a little more of a wild-card, but how many people swore CEE was the best thing since sliced bread at one point? Anecdotes often aren’t always very reliable.

 

[toddmuelheim]

I don’t know why Norvaline still finds its way in supplements anyways.

https://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/235003-coops-corner-2-a.html

coops corner

 

[sns8778]

Are there even any positive studies for pumps/endurance/etc. in healthy subjects? I just don’t see the risk/reward balance being too good if there’s no actual studies showing it works in healthy humans, at least/especially if there are studies showing it doesn’t. If there are just no studies in healthy humans at all, then it’s a little more of a wild-card, but how many people swore CEE was the best thing since sliced bread at one point? Anecdotes often aren’t always very reliable.

Most of the studies that I've ever seen on Norvaline are for cardiovascular purposes or some for Alzheimer's and TBI patients. As with a lot of things, the crossover benefits can be inferred with certain things but not sure if its ever been studied specifically for pumps. I doubt that it has because its not a branded ingredient and generic ingredients rarely get studies done on them specifically for pumps because it isn't profitable in the sense of companies being able to buy it from any supplier versus needing to use a branded ingredient. I hope that makes sense.

From a personal perspective, the reason I'm so curious about it is how well it works for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying its incredible compared to the newer generation of things like VASO6 but for something thats been around as long as it has, I remember the first time I tried it being very impressed with it and thats what lead me to try it solo.

And for me, if you get to know me, you'll find that I'm very much not a placebo guy. I'm more on the super critical side of things which is why Norvaline stands out as being one of ingredients that I was so surprised worked so well for me. BUT I also realize and am a firm believer in that things work different for different people and just because Norvaline works great for me doesn't mean it does for everyone else. Likewise, I've tried some products that are very popular and that people have loved over the years that did absolutely nothing for me and instead of saying it didn't work, I just have the stance of ____ seems to work great for everyone else besides me haha.

In full disclosure, we don't use Norvaline in anything and truthfully, if people abandon it, it probably helps sales for SNS products. I just wanted to explain that so that you didn't think I was trying to defend it. For me, its more legit curiosity because it worked so well for me and also because there are just some things about the study that raise some questions to me. Business wise, I'm probably better off to shut up and let everyone hate it

 

[HIT4ME]

Just thought this was interesting, since it is only a couple months old as well, and the above says Norvaline is bad for yoyr brain.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30288668/

 

[Madevilz]

Has there been any recent updates on norvaline's safety?
The latest research Ive found date from dec 2019 points out that it might be over exaggerated.

Reports of L-Norvaline Toxicity in Humans May Be Greatly Overstated

Recently, a study published in “Toxicology In Vitro” (Kate Samardzic and Kenneth J. Rodgers) was entitled: “Cytotoxicity and Mitochondrial Dysfunction Caused by the Dietary Supplement L-Norvaline”. The title may be greatly ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Any updates since? What would be a safe dosage?

 

[sns8778]

Has there been any recent updates on norvaline's safety?
The latest research Ive found date from dec 2019 points out that it might be over exaggerated.

Reports of L-Norvaline Toxicity in Humans May Be Greatly Overstated

Recently, a study published in “Toxicology In Vitro” (Kate Samardzic and Kenneth J. Rodgers) was entitled: “Cytotoxicity and Mitochondrial Dysfunction Caused by the Dietary Supplement L-Norvaline”. The title may be greatly ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Any updates since? What would be a safe dosage?

I absolutely would not worry about Norvaline at all.

We don't use it in anything bc not worth the drama or debate and I think there are better ingredients now days, but I wouldn't be worried about taking it at all.

 

[N2ofusion]

Too much definitely gives me headaches. I’ve never ran it solo, only in prop blends.

I always felt like this could be pulled from formulas and added back in LATER if research had proved there was nothing to worry about.