What is the best pro-hormone for the average user?

[Distilled Water]

So 1-androsterone is better than Ergopharms 1-AD?
How high is the convesation rate to 1-test, because it has to convert in two steps, but he original 1-Ad only had to do one step! Is Advanced Muscle Sciences 1-Androsterone the best Prohormon on the market?

IDK, go ask them seeing how it's thier product.

 

[AZZA]

I think the LG post is a top post, it is all so self explanatory. All of these supps are not for the casual novice lifter. Always make a informed choice and applies to anything in life.
AZZA

 

[LG Sciences]

So 1-androsterone is better than Ergopharms 1-AD?
How high is the convesation rate to 1-test, because it has to convert in two steps, but he original 1-Ad only had to do one step! Is Advanced Muscle Sciences 1-Androsterone the best Prohormon on the market?

Same thing...1-Androsterone is the same thing as their 1-Androstenolone or whatever they are calling it...

I think the 1-ene prohormones are probably the most potent on the market today that are real prohormones.

 

[Bravoboy]

I'm planning an Epi/MMv2 run soon. just need to pick up the MMv2 @ nutra!
My main question is about the chemical conversion of both products together?

them both being epi
epihydroxyetioallocholan-17-one
2a,3a-epithio-17a-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol

sure it would seem to have great synergy?
granted one is a ds vs. ph what really is the difference on the conversion process and how it binds to receptors, maybe competing or maybe one not being as affective if taken solo due to this?

Not really sure how to get the question out. any help here?

 

[3clipseGT]

I'm planning an Epi/MMv2 run soon. just need to pick up the MMv2 @ nutra!
My main question is about the chemical conversion of both products together?

them both being epi
epihydroxyetioallocholan-17-one
2a,3a-epithio-17a-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol

sure it would seem to have great synergy?
granted one is a ds vs. ph what really is the difference on the conversion process and how it binds to receptors, maybe competing or maybe one not being as affective if taken solo due to this?

Not really sure how to get the question out. any help here?

2 different products bro. Epi never put mass on me nor did MMV2, both are dry and great for strength.

 

[Bravoboy]

Well, i will admit. I put on 17lbs from an epi/prop. run last spring. so i'm hoping that the mmv2 will be a bit dryer and the epi does the same for me. Don't tell me why but havoc for me felt dry but I looked wet!

 

[barnesjc]

Legal Gear,

What would you recommend for the PCT after running the ultimate mass stack(1-AD + 4-AD)?

Also, I searched all over for the article you mentioned was coming next for pro hormone doses. Where can I find it?

Thanks.

 

[SwolenONE]

Well, i will admit. I put on 17lbs from an epi/prop. run last spring. so i'm hoping that the mmv2 will be a bit dryer and the epi does the same for me. Don't tell me why but havoc for me felt dry but I looked wet!

I know right! I like Havoc, and bought another at the new yrs NP sale, but I had moon face while on it (watery, round face) and I held a fair amount of water, like a film over my whole body. In the end I did gain 10lbs, of which I held onto about 6 after I lost all the water. While on cycle I could count on more reps or slightly more weights used from week to week.

Im very excited for an M1D, MMv2 cycle in a few week!!!

 

[Bravoboy]

Its getting closer and closer for me on this run! Been dealin with all kind of issues but still liftin and fightin! Can't wait to try out the mmv2!
How much yohimbe is in a cap vs. One scoop of jacked does anyone know the cap or caps it might be equivalent to? I know one is USP labs but I sure can tell when ive taken jacked!

 

[teveUNC]

I am not sure if I should have started a new thread, but this one seems appropriate since I would consider my self an average user.

I have been lifting weights for at least ten years now; however, I lifted a lot more frequently during college. As my job requires me to travel a lot and work 80 - 100 hours some weeks, I do not have as much time to work out as much as I would like.

In the past, I have historically just taken creatine and protein supplements. Occasionally, I have tried other products such as NO-Xplode, but nothing too hardcore. Back in November, a buddy of mine who is really into bodybuilding gave me a bottle of Epistane as he said it worked great for him. Unfortunately, I did not ask enough questions or do enough research. Since November, I have only used it when I would work out, which may have only been a day or two a week. Even then, I typically only took 20mg.

That finally brings me to my question. Due to the current economic environment, my job has slowed down, so I am getting to the gym five days a week. I have spent the past few days reading a lot of information on this board and I am looking to start a cycle of prohormones. Given my lack of truly cycling Epistane, do I need to have a PCT or do I need to take any time off before starting a cycle? I ask on this forum because based on reading a lot of information, it sounds like Methyl 1-D may be a great choice for a beginning cycle. Plus, the LG guys on this board seem to provide invaluable, unbiased information and research.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

 

[Bravoboy]

Yes, LG's MMv2. or M1D are both good for beginners. just get you some formadrol extreme and possibly some PSarm for PCT

 

[teveUNC]

Thanks! That is what I have gathered from reading these boards. But do you think it is safe to start on M1D (prior to using PCT) now since my use of Epistane was sporadic at best?

Yes, LG's MMv2. or M1D are both good for beginners. just get you some formadrol extreme and possibly some PSarm for PCT

 

[BBR]

How do you think a M1D/Epistane stack would go?

 

[SwolenONE]

How do you think a M1D/Epistane stack would go?

follows the basic stacking a wet and a dry, or as Dave Pulumbo calls it 1+1=3

what im saying is the two would stack very well, Im thinking about stacking havoc and m1d myself.

 

[Bravoboy]

How do you think a M1D/Epistane stack would go?

I think they would go great together. wouldn't have too much to worry about as far as toxicity and you should get some very maintainable gains.

 

[dublz44]

Im looking to do a stack of 1-Androsterone + 5aEpiAndrosterone for some good strength gains..i already have the sized at 208 and 8% bf, but i want to get stronger and maybe cut the bf down to around 5 or 6...anyone know of two good products to stack that fit the stack i want to run?? help would be great lol

 

[wgmatats]

I want to stack 1-andro with either Liquid Masterdrol or MMV2. First, is their a difference between LM and MMV2, and which would you recommend? And second, what dosing would be best for a six week cycle?

thanks

This will be my third cycle with LG products. Great stuff!

 

[stugats]

What about a stack of 1-Androsterone & Methyl Masterdrol V2? Would this be a good stack and what should I use for PCT?

 

[Bravoboy]

What about a stack of 1-Androsterone & Methyl Masterdrol V2? Would this be a good stack and what should I use for PCT?

that would be a great stack. just go with Prim.Performance's PCT stack.

 

[skidn]

From reading the intial post, and other research it seems that a good cutting stack would be Methyl Masterdrol V2 or Liquid Masterdrol and 11-OXO?

I am 39 years old, weigh 190lbs and have been lifting off and on for the last 10+ years but have been very consistent for the last 3 years. Looking to cut while at least maintain if not gain a little lean mass. My diet, cardio and training are on target but I have been having a difficult time getting that last little bit of fat around the lower abs off.

Any recommendations for dosage, cycle would be appreciated.

 

[Bravoboy]

well, theres tons of options. depending on your bodyfat% you could go with napalm and MMv2 and levi reloaded. that would be great.

 

[skidn]

Body Fat is around 11% based on a caliper (never super accurate). I like the idea of Napalm, I have never tried a topical product. I have heard and read mixed reviews on topical products. Any others have thoughts regarding this?

 

[SwolenONE]

Body Fat is around 11% based on a caliper (never super accurate). I like the idea of Napalm, I have never tried a topical product. I have heard and read mixed reviews on topical products. Any others have thoughts regarding this?

our Lipo Burn has one of the main actives from Napalm, lasts longer and actually has been preferred by some who are affiliated with neither company. Rosie from Applied Nut compared the two a few months back.

 

[mw525]

what supp contains 19NorAndrosterone

 

[EasyEJL]

Decavol I think

 

[ConcreteConny]

So this 19-Norandrosta-4,9 diene-3,17 dione substance is more on the safe side? Just wondering beacuse I can get it for half the price right now. Anyone had any experience with this? Is it worth purchasing?

Kindest Regards!

//C

 

[Bravoboy]

Just get the X-Tren if you want just the 19-Norandrosta-4,9 diene-3,17 dione, but if its the 19NorAndrosterone I wouldn't exactly know as much as far as sides or anything.

 

[ConcreteConny]

Yup, it's the same as X-Tren, just another brand. Thanks for the infromation! As far as sides go - anyone like to share experiences?

 

[Katman9]

I am looking for a good strength gainer but also a cutting hormone, any suggestions, I've read the posts, and 5a-epiAndrosterone was suggested, what supplements have this? thanks

 

[ktatro1]

Not exactly sure as O-chem allows many names for one molecule...however, MMv3, Epistane, Havoc.....all these would be considered cutters. Epistane and Havoc are stronger and more harsh(the are methylated), so you would need stronger pct/on-cycle support to run these compounds. All provide excellent strength and dry, lean gains.

 

[Deadlift3]

Do you also need a serm for these type of ph's?

 

[ktatro1]

not for all prohormones. with the more mild PHs it is usually ok to run an OTC AI/serm type pct. For harder PHs or DS, yes a serm is usually the way to go, but without supplement names, its hard to point you in the right direction.

 

[Deadlift3]

not for all prohormones. with the more mild PHs it is usually ok to run an OTC AI/serm type pct. For harder PHs or DS, yes a serm is usually the way to go, but without supplement names, its hard to point you in the right direction.

Lets say 1-Androsterone and 4-ad? Do I need a serm? And do you think its smart to do a cycle of 1-ad while pulsing SD 3 days a week? Would it be beneficial?

 

[American_Giant]

1-Androsterone + 4-Androsterone. where can this be bought?

is taking just nolva a good pct?

 

[HitMyMrk]

What makes the best prohormone for the average user?

This question is one that many people want answered before they put something into their body. So, what really makes the best pro-hormone for people to use? First we need to understand the difference between prohormones and steroids and decipher the many products on the market that use both steroids and pro-hormones in their formulations.

Steroids are active hormones in the body that are naturally produced or unnaturally taken to perform a specific task. Steroids are NOT anabolic steroids, there is a difference. Steroids can be birth control, cortisone or even cholesterol. Something that is a steroid isn’t anabolic (builds muscle) and it doesn’t make the item illegal. Legal steroids that are not anabolic that you will find in a health food store are: progesterone creams and pregnenolone. These are all considered steroids but they are NOT anabolic steroids or androgens. So, the word steroid is like “vehicle” composed of trucks, bikes, motorcycles and cars. It is a generic term that has no real meaning other than to classify a compound.

Under this is a class called Androgens, which are anabolic steroids that are derived from testosterone and its analogs. These testosterone derivatives are the typical suspects that one would see on the black market or in cancer patients. Products like “deca” (nandrolone), equipoise (boldenone) or D-Bol (methandrostenolone) compose this class of drugs. Some anabolic steroids are sold as dietary supplements because they are not classified as drugs by the DEA. These are NOT legal however, since the FDA doesn’t recognize them as dietary supplements. The problem is that the FDA has a hard job in enforcing laws such as DSHEA. There is another class of legal products designed to increase levels of androgens legally and these are called prohormones.

Illegal anabolic steroids are classified into two groups: oral anabolic steroids and injectable anabolic steroids. Oral steroids have a 17aMethyl group which blocks liver enzymes and therefore can cause liver enzymes to increase. Often grey market anabolic steroids (ones not classified by the DEA, yet not legal by FDA standards) use this 17a Methyl delivery system to increase potency. This delivery method should be clearly visible on the product information as in the grey market prohormone 4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-1, 4-diene-3-17b-diol. This product is actually a prohormone but one that contains the 17a-methyl delivery system, making it liver stressful. Compounds that are in this category on the open market usual have a “Halo”, “Phera” or “Drol” in their name. They are clone products of the products ruled upon by the FDA in 2005 as not being DHSEA compliant. Also, black market steroids such as “D-bol”, “Anadrol 50” and “Winstrol” have this liver stressing delivery system. Injectable steroids do not share this liver stressing situation and they are not sold as supplements, since the FDA prohibits anything sold as a supplement from being injected however they are available on the black market as “Equipoise”, “Deca” and “Test Prop” or “Sustenon 250”. Injectables do not carry the liver stress of the oral pills, but they have their own set of issues like the need for often painful injections. Are these the best prohormone for the average guy? I think not, since they are either illegal or grey and are not always safe. I think the best prohormone is actually one that IS a prohormone vs. an anabolic steroid. If you see a 17aMethyl in the ingredient name, it is probably a grey market steroid, so look for the 17aMethyl to avoid liver stress if that is a concern for you. If you see a 17aMethyl in the ingredient name, it is probably a grey market steroid, so look for the 17aMethyl to avoid liver stress if that is a concern for you and if you wish to stay with legal products.


There is another option which I feel is the best product for the average person, which is a TRUE prohormone. PRO means precursor to, or converts into. Provitamin A (beta carotene) is a vitamin that converts into vitamin A via an enzyme system. These “pro” drugs or “pro” supplements are much safer since your body converts them to active constituents as they are needed. True “pro” hormones are things that convert to testosterone and testosterone analogs in the body in order to be fully active. They do not carry the liver stress of the grey market steroids either which is a big benefit for long term use. Some pro-hormones are 100% legal by both the DEA and the FDA (complying with DHSEA) and will be outlined later. The FDA laws require that the hormone be naturally occurring and ALSO be sold as a dietary supplement intended for that use prior to 1994 (which is conveniently forgotten by many supplement companies). Things like Estra 4,9-Diene are not DSHEA compliant because they were not sold as dietary supplements prior to 1994, which makes them only legal if the companies in question apply for a New Dietary Ingredient Status which is costly and takes time. The FDA is slower to react, which is why this stuff is on the market, so people feel comfortable breaking FDA law, while DEA law is another matter entirely.

Here is a short list of pro-hormones that are on the market and my opinion on their legal status and listing them in potency:

Relative Potency of TRUE Prohormones:
1-Androsterone (DEA Legal, Pending DSHEA Compliant) - Rating 10
** Search 1-Androstene-3b-ol,17-one
(best used for size and strength gains in cycles of 4-6 weeks @ 300-600mg/Day)

4,9 Estra-Diene (DEA Legal, NOT Currently DSHEA Compliant) – Rating 9.5
(best used for size gains in cycles of 4-6 weeks @ 300mg/Day)
** Search 4,9 Estra-Diene

19Nor-Androsterone (DEA Legal, DSHEA Compliant) – Rating 8.5
** Search Norandrostene-3b-ol,17-one
(best for safe size gains in cycles of 4-6 weeks @ 300-400mg/Day)

5a-epiAndrosterone (DEA Legal, DSHEA Compliant) – Rating 8.5
** Search epihydroxyetioallocholan-17-one
(best for cutting cycles and strength gains in cycles of 4-6 weeks @ 300-600mg/Day)

11-keto-Androstenedione (DEA Legal, Pending DSHEA Compliant) – Rating 7
** Search Adrenosterone
(best for mild gains and mild fat loss in cycles of 4-6 weeks @ 300mg/Day)

DHEA Ethanoate Ester (DEA Legal, DSHEA Compliant) – Rating 7
(400-500mg per day)

4-Androsterone (DEA Legal, Pending DSHEA Compliant) – Rating 7
** Search 4-Androstene-3b-ol,17-one
(400-800mg/Day)

1,4 Andro-dione (DEA Legal, NOT DSHEA Compliant) – Rating 6.5
** Search Boldione
(300-600mg/Day)

DHEA (DEA Legal, DSHEA Compliant) – Rating 5
(500-800mg/Day)

Here are some good stacked items:
Ultimate Mass Stack
1-Androsterone + 4-Androsterone = Combination of wet and dry compounds for maximum gains

Ultimate Wet Size Stack
4-Androsterone + 1,4 Andro-dione = both can help you retain water weight for hard gainers who need instant “looks”

Ultimate Cutting Stack
5aEpiAndrosterone + 11-keto-Androstenedione = combination of anti-estrogenic, lipolytic and cortisol reducing effects

Ultimate Safety Stack
19NorAndrosterone + 11-Keto-Androstenedione = combination of mild prohormones

Ultimate Strength Stack
1-Androsterone + 5aEpiAndrosterone = crazy strength gains (use the 5aEpi right before working out)

These products are much closer to what the government intended as a dietary supplement, meaning that they are not active anabolic steroids yet still provide benefits for the bodybuilder. They are usually quite potent yet do not carry the liver stress that the grey market steroids may have with the 17aMethyl delivery system. 1-Androsterone is the most potent prohormone on the market and although it is not an anabolic steroid, it does give your body the raw materials to make it’s own active steroids, which should give a nice increase to muscles without suffering negative side effects seen with the grey market steroids on the market (often referred to wrongly as “prosteroids” which is a misnomer since they are not “pro” anything, they don’t need to convert to be active and are not dependent on the body’s enzymes). This product is pending a study that will prove it to be DSHEA compliant and once that is complete we should expect to see 1-Androsterone products on the market, since it is the best choice for the average bodybuilder. The other products are all good too and have some distinct advantages as well. 1-Androsterone or “1-Andro” is the best for raw size and strength but others have some very good benefits, making them good choices for the “best prohormone for the average guy” 19NorAndrosterone has very little negative side effects like hairloss and prostate enlargement and is great for long term use and by people over 45, which makes it a very mild prohormone that may even increase hair growth and reduce the prostate size. 5aAndrosterone or 5aEpiAndrosterone is a great product for cutting body fat and increasing focus and intensity, since it stimulates both the mind and the muscle via natual pathways. 11-Keto-Androstenedione has the benefit of also cutting cortisol, which is healthy and good for cutting body fat. So, depending on the desired goals each hormone has some very positive benefits.

All androgenic steroids and their precursors carry some minor issues that should be addressed. It is possible to lose hair when the androgenic profile of the body is changed. Additionally, the body is subject to many side effects that can occur in people, so it is best to check with a doctor prior to use and to stop using prohormones if there are any side effects that are noticed. I believe that TRUE prohormones can be used for 4-12 week cycles and that they are extremely safe when used in this manner. I can’t say the same for the illegal grey market 17a Methyl steroids on the market. In my opinion, they will not harm you long term and their safety is not horrible like the media suggests, but they are illegal and the FDA made a ruling in 2005 that these products should not be on the market as dietary supplements, so they are not legal in my book.

I think the best prohormone for the average bodybuilder is one that balances the factors that I have identified. Legality is one factor and although you can get illegal grey market steroids like “Halo, Phera and Drol”, these products put all dietary supplements at risk and are really bad for your freedom to access quality dietary supplements. I don’t believe that the 17aMethyl products are terribly dangerous even thought they raise liver enzymes, but they are not something to be taken lightly. Also as I stated they limit your future access to legal DSHEA compliant dietary supplements like creatine and amino acids. Please understand to the media and congress, steroids are ANYTHING that builds muscle, so to them even protein is considered a steroid and certainly there have been many movements to ban creatine for example. So, making a choice from the list of DSHEA compliant pro-hormones is a vote for legal and defensible sports supplements. Once the FDA made a decision to specify certain products as not DSHEA compliant in 2005, it is best to avoid purchasing these items and to support legal, DSHEA compliant products as a way to ensure we have freedom to potent, yet safe dietary supplements for some time.

The good news is that choosing a product off the legal list will give you some serious advantages as well! First, 17aMethyl steroids will make you gain 10-15lbs in two weeks, BUT they are gains that you are most likely to lose since your body has not adjusted to the extra size. Staying on a 17aMethyl product for more than two weeks isn’t advisable since raised liver enzymes are not something you want to have for long cycles. Choosing a pro-hormone that puts on size at a slower rate is actually a much better idea in my opinion. Gains with the DSHEA compliant pro-hormones can range from 7-17 lbs in a month. Certainly they are much slower, but they are gains that you can actually maintain and keep. This is actually a huge advantage since your body wants to be in a state of homeostasis whenever possible. Homeostasis is basically maintaining what you’ve been and resisting change. Only slow and steady changes in your body are permanent so although the lure of 15lbs in two weeks is nice and I have done it myself, the only thing that really made any difference in my physique was continual slow changes. That is why doctors recommend slow weight loss to crash diets and long term hormone use vs. quick cycles that cause you to gain tons of muscle in a short amount of time. We all know those kids in high school that did steroids and were huge for one football season yet now are tiny and scrawny. (I have a friend like this…I saw him a few years ago and you would never even know he did steroids) I have been able to change my body’s set point for muscle by doing long and steady cycles of LEGAL pro-hormones over many years. This is why it is so important to support legal supplements, since your goals for pro-hormone use should be thought in terms of years vs. weeks. You can’t plan for the year if your access to potent, safe and legal dietary pro-hormones is cut short because they get lumped in with the grey market steroids. So, in my opinion a pro-hormone that you can use safely for 8 weeks is much better than a short two or three week cycle. Also, it is one that you can use for 4 cycles a year vs. only one or two cycles a year. It may take longer to get the results, but they are results that you can keep for years to come and enjoy for a life time.

So, balance your pro-hormone pick on side effects, goals and desired effect and make a positive choice that supports freedom and safe use yet gives maximum effects. Also, price is a factor, since the more potent the product, usually the higher price point (price is amount plus dose required). My final thought is to vary the types of legal pro-hormone you use for each cycle since I truly believe that the body adapts to one type of pro-hormone used consistently. Also, stacking pro-hormones is a good choice since they often have different functions. I hope this article helps put these products in perspective and helps you make an informed choice on which products are the best for making gains while being safe and responsible. In my next article, I will discuss timing your pro-hormone doses for maximum effect.

Please do not put trade names of other people's products in ths thread. If you wish to buy other peoples stuff, that is cool, but please at least keep our forum clean!

Hey Eric, about to order some LG porducts just want some direction on the most effective stack allowing me to pack on 20 or so lbs in approx. 6 weeks or less. Looking for something comp. to ax 3-ad and mass fx... Looking for the most powerful stack LG has to offer. I've found the Methyl 1-d, Methyl Masterdrol, Natadrol, and Formadrol (pct) waiting for your suggestion. I'm 42yo, 6'1 200lbs, been training for approx. 28yrs

 

[maddog28]

can some one give me a stack or supplements of the ultimate saftey stack? ive been trying to find some ph's with the 19NorAndrosterone + 11-Keto-Androstenedione!???

 

[VolcomX311]

Hey Eric, about to order some LG porducts just want some direction on the most effective stack allowing me to pack on 20 or so lbs in approx. 6 weeks or less. Looking for something comp. to ax 3-ad and mass fx... Looking for the most powerful stack LG has to offer. I've found the Methyl 1-d, Methyl Masterdrol, Natadrol, and Formadrol (pct) waiting for your suggestion. I'm 42yo, 6'1 200lbs, been training for approx. 28yrs

20lbs of sheer, unadulterated lean body mass is not realistic in 6 weeks. 20lbs in general, including plenty of fat and water is, but not 20lbs of LBM.

 

[Bravoboy]

No doubt about that.

 

[EXDOUS]

I'm looking for a quick jump in my physique and workouts. I was on the m-stack and now I'm looking for another product that has a little more strength I dont really need much. Which oone of these should I get?

 

[Broly]

I've found this thread extremely interesting, but one thinf that suprised me most was the last prohormone on the list, DHEA, with a recomended dosage of 500/800mg a day, so I wonder, how could I use DHEA at these dosages and to what purposes?
Plus, if I cycle it wich are the main concerns that I should have in mind and how can I counter them?
I mean, I know that DHEA would convert into testosterone (and consequently estrogen) but at these dosages I've never read something about it nor about its effects.

 

[zchen]

This thread may need a update. Boldione (androsta-1,4-diene-3,17-dione) and Tren (19-nor-4,9(10)-androstadienedione (estra-4,9(10)-diene-3,17-dione)) are now banned.

 

[Finna Tay Ya]

I've got (5a)-androsten-17a-methyl-176-ol-3-one. 10mg capsules. What's a typical dosage for this?

 

[jluisbarriga]

I am looking to try one of these stacks can someone help me? I am trying to put on lean mass, if you need anymore info let me know. lg science seems to be the only company that has good reviews for their product.

 

[JD261985]

This is a very old thread but the original post by Eric is extremely informative and makes a lot of sense

 

[bigflex0]

This is a very old thread but the original post by Eric is extremely informative and makes a lot of sense

It sure does still relevant information to be found here. Thank you for taking the time to read it.

 

[EHouse]

Has anyone encountered A-D-T (arimistane, 1-DHEA, trib 90%)
Containing 3-hydroxy-5alpha-androst-1-en-17 one, arimistane; androsta 3 5 dien-7, 17-Dione.
Dosage set to 300mg

Is it illegal ? Are there severe cons?