PFlow's TRT + PED Chat & workout Logs via Tonal + dumbbells

PFlowReborn

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I think that’s the way to go since you are already on the TRT, just stack the enclomiphene on top now and if in a few months it’s not revived them sufficiently you can always still stop the shots later and try for a true HPTA restart. Or HCG therapy before that.

Summer is a good time to cut! Just avoid the beer and carbs and junk food and focus on meats and veggies. It doesn’t have to be complicated.
So the doc/nurse bought my revised "I'll pause on enclomiphene stay on TRT and get SSRI going first story.. but they made sure to emphasize not to mix the clomid and TRT, I said will not mix.. lol."

But I wonder why the emphasis, when some TRT clinic push the dual TRT and enclomiphene use? I guess he's a pure urologist, he smart he knows about what we're up to.. but doesn't fully condone I assume so gotta keep the story clean.

Yeah might as well try TRT and enclomiphene for 2 months, no other PED and just see how that goes and I'll have to get some SNS alpha Yohimbine, little more muscle tech euphoric pre, and maybe anti cortisol AET from Apex along with Ursa I have.

Wife tries helps with the clean cooking aspect, very handy there. Got some pantry rework to do.

@akboom87 Got the DeWalt angle grinder and these polymer-silicon.carbide "stripping wheels" on Amazon will post before and after :) of the Blackstone restoration thanks for the direction on the tool choice.
 

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Maybe I missed it but why not just run hcg with your trt indefinitely? Healthier than running a serm and more effective for TV.
 
akboom87

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So the doc/nurse bought my revised "I'll pause on enclomiphene stay on TRT and get SSRI going first story.. but they made sure to emphasize not to mix the clomid and TRT, I said will not mix.. lol."

But I wonder why the emphasis, when some TRT clinic push the dual TRT and enclomiphene use? I guess he's a pure urologist, he smart he knows about what we're up to.. but doesn't fully condone I assume so gotta keep the story clean.

Yeah might as well try TRT and enclomiphene for 2 months, no other PED and just see how that goes and I'll have to get some SNS alpha Yohimbine, little more muscle tech euphoric pre, and maybe anti cortisol AET from Apex along with Ursa I have.

Wife tries helps with the clean cooking aspect, very handy there. Got some pantry rework to do.

@akboom87 Got the DeWalt angle grinder and these polymer-silicon.carbide "stripping wheels" on Amazon will post before and after :) of the Blackstone restoration thanks for the direction on the tool choice.
Heck yeah that thing will be shining! I have had good luck with seasoning the bare metal with the blackstone seasoning 3-4 applications of that then go to your normal go to.
 
PFlowReborn

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Maybe I missed it but why not just run hcg with your trt indefinitely? Healthier than running a serm and more effective for TV.
Good question, there have been some clinics switching away from hcg in favor of enclomiphene..

The more effective part might have just been data catching up for enclomiphenes capability there, and also saw a 2021 NIH study using both with very good effect and so HCG is still on the table.

Having a mild SERM will also help with minor gyno side perhaps also.
 
MrKleen73

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So then the other question is, if the clomid doesn't do the trick are you going to give up on things or try HCG before resolving that you can not get TV back to an acceptable size without going off of TRT?
 
PFlowReborn

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So then the other question is, if the clomid doesn't do the trick are you going to give up on things or try HCG before resolving that you can not get TV back to an acceptable size without going off of TRT?
Not giving up on being strong or athletic and maintain good muscle mass, etc.. but I guess priorities and sex life have shifted as noted before..

1.) 2 months trial clomid + TRT see how that goes for TV
2.) I could try TRT + HCG also give that 2 months
3.) An NIH study shows promise for both in 2021.. so TRT + clomid + HCG seems the last option with TRT route..
4.) Well theres also L. Reuteri probiotics that seem several strains are working for TV as well. 2014 NIH paper, standalone.. but anecdotal reviews reports on related L. Reuteri strains show potential. So round 1-3 can also add this.

Most of the "pure enclomiphene trials" data in the papers seem promising that I was thinking well if it gets me back to 500-600.ng/dL natural and there's other things that can be taken to help get the gonads working, and also by its mechanism to force sperm creations and boost LH and FSH.. basically forces the nuts to wake up (so this is why some TRT clinics are now saying using enclomiphene over HCG while on TRT).. But seems to make sense that it would work best for TV restoration if the gonads are doing the work of Testosterone production. Well test it both ways here.

I mean if it gets to that point, I can keep the oils and orals in my nice blue footlocker in a cool dark closet for a while.. or do a private AM minds super auction before they ban me round two lol.
 
MrKleen73

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Not giving up on being strong or athletic and maintain good muscle mass, etc.. but I guess priorities and sex life have shifted as noted before..

1.) 2 months trial clomid + TRT see how that goes for TV
2.) I could try TRT + HCG also give that 2 months
3.) An NIH study shows promise for both in 2021.. so TRT + clomid + HCG seems the last option with TRT route..

Most of the "pure enclomiphene trials" data in the papers seem promising that I was thinking well if it gets me back to 500-600.ng/dL natural and there's other things that can be taken to help get the gonads working, and also by its mechanism to force sperm creations and boost LH and FSH.. basically forces the nuts to wake up. But seems to make sense that it would work best for TV restoration if the gonads are doing the work of Testosterone production.

I mean if it gets to that point, I can keep the oils and orals in my nice blue footlocker in a cool dark closet for a while.. or do a private AM minds super auction before they ban me round two lol.
Or maybe hit up your old buddy Kleen. I like deals. ;)

Have you given any thought to DAA if even still available? I remember using this during an oral cycle back in the day to keep the boys a little plumper. It seemed to help. I think it somehow increases the size of the leydig cells even though it will not make you produce testosterone on cycle.
 
PFlowReborn

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Or maybe hit up your old buddy Kleen. I like deals. ;)

Have you given any thought to DAA if even still available? I remember using this during an oral cycle back in the day to keep the boys a little plumper. It seemed to help. I think it somehow increases the size of the leydig cells even though it will not make you produce testosterone on cycle.
Will research that, muchos gracias.
 
PFlowReborn

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Or maybe hit up your old buddy Kleen. I like deals. ;)

Have you given any thought to DAA if even still available? I remember using this during an oral cycle back in the day to keep the boys a little plumper. It seemed to help. I think it somehow increases the size of the leydig cells even though it will not make you produce testosterone on cycle.
Got one Director level role out of Houston but it's -$20k from where I was (ouch). Still working on others.

Some good news, I did decide to go the doc route. Been two weeks of TRT injection and onto enclomiphene trial now. Added the L.reuteri probiotics and well the shriveled prunes have come back to life! Not full size yet but def on again and regained some plumpness.

Also SSRI has been helping with depression (long term) and other male issues, probably needed this awhile ago.

Once I get new bloodwork, gym time will resume. Had to make sure base of pyramid is stable again then can get back at it..
 
Hyde

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You’ve been off TRT, or had 2 weeks of TRT with Enclo? Not sure if you made a typo or not because you discussed doing Enclo with and without the testosterone.
 
PFlowReborn

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You’ve been off TRT, or had 2 weeks of TRT with Enclo? Not sure if you made a typo or not because you discussed doing Enclo with and without the testosterone.
Yeah ultimately decided to go for max gonad restoration at first and see where that lands me on just enclomiphene for 2 months and have urologist check the hormone levels then. Next, I'm going to get my own bloodwork now to see what being off TRT now and starting enclomiphene 2-3 weeks looks like. I'm only on enclomiphene + SSRI + vitamins and heart/cholesterol supps we've talked about before.. which is good because I was not using my support supps consistently (and I will need to from now on).

There already has been some definite volume restoration (went from shriveled prunes to small eggs already), and I felt it important to not suppress them with TRT and let them come back to full potential first.

Now once that's settled and I'm lifting again, if enclomiphene doesn't get my natural test levels back up enough can add light TRT to an existing enclomiphene regimen.. but maybe it will, testing TBD.

Happy Independence Day @Hyde @akboom87 and @MrKleen73 and @Segansational and @Smont. Will tag other friends later tonight.
 
akboom87

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Yeah ultimately decided to go for max gonad restoration at first and see where that lands me on just enclomiphene for 2 months and have urologist check the hormone levels then. Next, I'm going to get my own bloodwork now to see what being off TRT now and starting enclomiphene 2-3 weeks looks like. I'm only on enclomiphene + SSRI + vitamins and heart/cholesterol supps we've talked about before.. which is good because I was not using my support supps consistently (and I will need to from now on).

There already has been some definite volume restoration (went from shriveled prunes to small eggs already), and I felt it important to not suppress them with TRT and let them come back to full potential first.

Now once that's settled and I'm lifting again, if enclomiphene doesn't get my natural test levels back up enough can add light TRT to an existing enclomiphene regimen.. but maybe it will, testing TBD.

Happy Independence Day @Hyde @akboom87 and @MrKleen73 and @Segansational and @Smont. Will tag other friends later tonight.
Happy Independence Day man! Hope you cook some awesome grub on that griddle and have fun with the family!!
 
MrKleen73

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Same to you!
 
PFlowReborn

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Return to the gym today, finally. Back and biceps to start off. Just enclomiphene now, off TRT and other PEDs
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Check out the reddit experience seems this SERM is useful all on its own as a PED, neat. So far I'm noticing similar benefits to what they're saying here, hope it stays that way..
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https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/w312aw =
Midday back and biceps Workout
Thursday 6 Jul 2023, 13:27

Lat Pulldown (Cable)
Set 1: 124 lbs × 14
Set 2: 126 lbs × 10
Set 3: 128 lbs × 9

Back Extension
Set 1: (+5 lbs) × 10
Set 2: (+5 lbs) × 10

Deadlift (cable) Tonal
Set 1: 62 lbs × 12
Set 2: 64 lbs × 10
Set 3: 66 lbs × 10

Face Pull (Cable)
Set 1: 50 lbs × 14
Set 2: 54 lbs × 12
Set 3: 56 lbs × 12

Bicep Curl (Cable)
Set 1: 50 lbs × 8
Set 2: 48 lbs × 10
Set 3: 46 lbs × 12
Set 4: 46 lbs × 12

Seated Row (Cable)
Set 1: 120 lbs × 11
Set 2: 124 lbs × 12
Set 3: 124 lbs × 8

with Strong
 
MrKleen73

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Sounds like most of them were low t and started feeling the test. Not that it is anabolic on it's own. Just the resulting increase back to normal levels. Not trying to be Debbie downer, but none of them sounded very educated on hormones at all. I don't think they realize this is just getting them back to normal not supraphysiological levels of testosterone. Still for your goals, I think that is fine. You at 195 with your T at normal levels is going to look great on your frame then you can decide from there.
 
PFlowReborn

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Well got a good chest and triceps pump here in an hour today.
=
Morning Workout
Friday 7 Jul 2023, 11:56

Goblet squat (cable)
Set 1: 50 lbs × 12
Set 2: 54 lbs × 12
Set 3: 58 lbs × 10

Incline Bench Press (Cable)
Set 1: 52 lbs × 10
Set 2: 54 lbs × 9
Set 3: 56 lbs × 9

Decline chest fly (cable)
Set 1: 32 lbs × 11
Set 2: 34 lbs × 10
Set 3: 36 lbs × 10

Overhead triceps extension
Set 1: 52 lbs × 11
Set 2: 54 lbs × 10
Set 3: 56 lbs × 8

Skullcrusher (cable)
Set 1: 26 lbs × 10
Set 2: 26 lbs × 10
Set 3: 28 lbs × 8

with Strong
https://strong.app.link/uTikTjDjfBb
*
 
MrKleen73

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Good stuff!
 
PFlowReborn

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Alright last hiatus and then new job + new school = empty house in the daytime soon = some more gym time for dad with kiddos and wife at school and job now after the RIF and me finding new career avenues.

So - before kicking it off again, decided to do something about my knees so I can train legs more now that I have attachments and bench worked out for that + Tonal system. And get back at it, just been doing 2-days /week body lifts to prevent strength loss...

Also, things are going very well on enclomiphene + SSRI, both in solving a.) depression b.) TV restoration (balls restored), and it turns out the low seratonin (depression) state can also give one a 'light trigger' in bed, aka PE. Super happy that's mostly fixed too, jebus. SSRI + Tadalafil = good times in bed.

Super lagging on private bloods, should get the off TRT on enclomiphene + heart and cholesterol support supps and GNC megaman vitamin... at 1 month here.

Then urologist runs his at 2months on enclomiphene. That should show some and then better recovery.
=
Y'all know Freak Athlete Essentials? I just got their Nordic Mini (nordic, hamstring curls) because I've been watching Knees over Toes, ATB, and DanielJrStretch (all ex athletes, tall with stiffness and knee issues they rehab through range of motion and PT strength training exercises).
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&
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Seriously, I'm JUST about to put together the Nordic Mini from Freak Athlete... then l see this product launch e-mail (of course weeks after I make a better 90-degree Marcy Pro hyperextension bench)... They freakin' launch an awesome looking Nordic + Hyper Bench combo...

Like awesome for people like me with both knee and stiffness and posterior chain work to do... So my combo is like $200 less, but this is a single awesome looking piece of equipment for $700+.
=
 
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Hyde

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Well, came down the Nord-Ex from shogun sports - https://shogunsports.com/products/mr1nf1n1ty-x-shogun-nordex vs. the Freak Athlete - Nordic Hyper combo, chose the Freak Athlete - https://freakathlete.co/products/nordic-hyper-extension


This awesome, really going to help the posterior chain issues... And will free up garage gym space for this preacher curl bench.

Back soon!
You just bought a preacher curl bench in the Nordic Freak: use that GHR pad for your preacher curls & save the space/money!
 
MrKleen73

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Oh wow, that thing is pretty sharp!
 
PFlowReborn

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You just bought a preacher curl bench in the Nordic Freak: use that GHR pad for your preacher curls & save the space/money!
I'll give it a shot not sure the handles might get in the way for using Tonal and ez curl bar, but for regular dumbbells no issue.
Oh wow, that thing is pretty sharp!
Thanks! Anything to save space and fix the back and spine,. posterior chain stuff and the knees next.
 
MrKleen73

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Almost there. Start with new work Monday and be in Houston for a Wed/Thurs trip. Going to try and knockout 2x sessions here before going.

Then school starts after and wife with job so have daytime house to sneak in gym sessions.
Congrats on the new job. What will you be doing now? What part of Houston will you be in? Maybe we can get together. I work in Downtown, and live on the South East side of Houston.
 
PFlowReborn

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Congrats on the new job. What will you be doing now? What part of Houston will you be in? Maybe we can get together. I work in Downtown, and live on the South East side of Houston.
Same sorta work instead of product development and management, it's director systems engineering for a large solar company. I'll shoot you a PM.
 
PFlowReborn

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It's been a long unplanned summer break away from training (sadly) so not looking so juicy at this point lol.

Back to the drawing board but going to give myself some life props for surviving an unplanned career change, keeping my family and new house going, and getting marriage /romance stuff back on track.

New plan, ive been off TRT now for 4-5 months (daily 50mg Clomid alternative from urologist) and with that and certain probiotics I feel pretty good and balls are back to full size, restoration of testicular volume (yay)!

Going to get bloodwork here and see if Test levels on Clomid are good, and then I may return to train and prehab getting strength and flexibility up.

Can't wait for the Freak Athlete Nordic hyper GHD bench to show up (should be after Giving being an early preorder). Need be flexible and have good core, knees...not just be gym strong.

And adding Echelon Stride treadmill to run off some of the shitty summer diet off lol.

I might finally try TRT with Clomid once past final urology bloodwork as Hyde and MrKleen suggested earlier and yes return to use orals like DPlex, Mechabol, MSten sparingly (given the risks that orals present of overused).

Back in lurk and educate mode, prep my cooking more since the food consistency needs to improve.

Daily I want to follow the gym, killed me all summer but saving career /home /family /marriage took precedent first.
 
akboom87

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Glad to hear all is well and things worked out! Gym will always be there got to take care of family first, always.
 
MrKleen73

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Welcome back Sir!
 
PFlowReborn

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Welcome back Sir!
Thanks my man, good things coming. Getting close to having my new job under control enough to actually start to fit in workouts during the day or morning soon.

For those of us with sports or work injuries and flexibility issues I've been following (aside from the knees over toes guy) these two gents off Instagram (former Basketball and track athletes) with similar knee and flexibility issues they worked past, when they were once like me and thought falsely they were stuck that way.. but worked to turn their weakness into strength.

Motivational ex track and field PT rehab guy - https://instagram.com/musclenmotiv8?igshid=MmU2YjMzNjRlOQ==

Also ex pro ball player with kinesiology and stretch with weight training https://instagram.com/danieljrstretch?igshid=MmU2YjMzNjRlOQ==
 
MrKleen73

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Thanks my man, good things coming. Getting close to having my new job under control enough to actually start to fit in workouts during the day or morning soon.

For those of us with sports or work injuries and flexibility issues I've been following (aside from the knees over toes guy) these two gents off Instagram (former Basketball and track athletes) with similar knee and flexibility issues they worked past, when they were once like me and thought falsely they were stuck that way.. but worked to turn their weakness into strength.

Motivational ex track and field PT rehab guy - https://instagram.com/musclenmotiv8?igshid=MmU2YjMzNjRlOQ==

Also ex pro ball player with kinesiology and stretch with weight training https://instagram.com/danieljrstretch?igshid=MmU2YjMzNjRlOQ==
Nice, I like the knees over toes guy. I have done a couple things of his, but I actually have pretty decent knees so I haven't delved too far into it.
 
Hyde

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Glad you are doing better.

You want to make fitness & activity a habit, something non-optional, to take care of your body. This can be time just doing rehab stuff if that is the priority.

Everyone can find 30 min 3x a week if they really want to.
 
PFlowReborn

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Glad you are doing better.

You want to make fitness & activity a habit, something non-optional, to take care of your body. This can be time just doing rehab stuff if that is the priority.

Everyone can find 30 min 3x a week if they really want to.
You're right about it being non optional (well except in some certain circumstances when your base of pyramid is threatened and all time was needed to ensure a new base is there).

But now that the base of pyramid is largely there again, I can find the time (more like 1hr sessions x3 at minimum).

And I'm not one to half ass, so if I feel I can't get the cooking and time consistent it's hard, because will to train is there, but my ability to always cook and manage career and energy and family on top of that is spotty. Like I've been able to train consistently for 1.5-2 years at a clip at best, but never like 5-7 years with good diet the whole time to really transform like some folks. Antidepressants and a better attitude should help me stay productive out of the bipolar highs and lows I used to get.

But I guess I'll just have to start and adapt like usual, just wanted to avoid a false start being unprepared. I could layout my hourly daily schedule, it's brutal, other engineers > mid level exec know what Chinese call 9-9-6 culture (9am-9pm 6 days a week) Corporate meeting all day 9-5 and if they expect IP/content generation beyond, then your working most nights after dinner too. Sometimes I wish I'd skipped college and just became a master electrician, so I was never in debt and earned a decent income (more blue collar) so when the work is done it doesn't follow you home.

Don't want to bore the crowd with my workaholic schedule, but at this point I've been out of gym 6-months and first month or two was fine but by months 3-4 of a high sugar/alcohol summer diet... Yikes I'm gonna have to run off the new love handles.

In the end either find a way to carve the time or just get out of shape.. I know, it's my predicament.

But I appreciate the motivating thinking, hope it bugs me enough to kickstart this week.

Good news go see the Urologist today and 50mg Clomid daily most certainly worked I have good ~500ng/dL free test levels, total test 177 (a little low), and it crushed my minor gyno as my estradiol is still non existent. I wasn't super consistent past few weeks with Clomid, so T levels could be higher still.

So I'll stay on Clomid based TRT (with Floracil 50 reversed my Testicular shrinkage from too much supersession, so wifey is happier).

I might dabble to add in light TRT boost + Clomid as you suggested before (once i get training again) but wanted to get past the doc-RX phase. And frankly my moon face also went away off TRT onto the clomid, helped again with wifey attraction, jaw line returned.

And the cholesterol/heart/liver vitamin and supplement regimens you and Kleen and Smont noted before I've been taking regular and bloodwork looks good, all normal again.
 
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MrKleen73

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Sounds good man, just do something consistently and it will all continue to build on itself.
 
Hyde

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I can wholly appreciate the all-or-nothing mindset, but that’s a trap that can keep you from just starting.

I have been a dad for almost 3 years now. I work a full time technology job, my wife works 6 days a week, we stay busy. If I worried about perfect nutrition, sleep, supplementation, or training I wouldn’t have accomplished ANYTHING. It’s never going to be optimal. I just try to give my best effort with whatever resources I have available, and don’t worry about spilled milk.

Doing something will outperform nothing every single time.
 
PFlowReborn

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I can wholly appreciate the all-or-nothing mindset, but that’s a trap that can keep you from just starting.

I have been a dad for almost 3 years now. I work a full time technology job, my wife works 6 days a week, we stay busy. If I worried about perfect nutrition, sleep, supplementation, or training I wouldn’t have accomplished ANYTHING. It’s never going to be optimal. I just try to give my best effort with whatever resources I have available, and don’t worry about spilled milk.

Doing something will outperform nothing every single time.
Congrats on making 3 years into dad world. And looks like I'll be forcing myself into the routine shortly... I misread the test results online (was looking at old numbers), even with 6-months Clomid at 50mg... Test was only ~177ng (barely on).

Urologist was like "well we gave it the old college try" and put me back on TRT 100mg/week.


You're right about not "letting perfection (all or nothing) be the enemy of good".
 
MrKleen73

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Congrats on making 3 years into dad world. And looks like I'll be forcing myself into the routine shortly... I misread the test results online (was looking at old numbers), even with 6-months Clomid at 50mg... Test was only ~177ng (barely on).

Urologist was like "well we gave it the old college try" and put me back on TRT 100mg/week.


You're right about not "letting perfection (all or nothing) be the enemy of good".
I was looking at what you sent and was like UHM your balls may be full but that Test looks abysmal. You should ask him to keep you on 25mg of clomid to keep the boys a bouncing, and volume up for your wife.
 
PFlowReborn

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Well a rough start back, but a start. Finally ran the DeWalt blower and got the gym cleaned up.

Back and biceps and then planned on a short run for a mile or so... But weird calves started to cramp at mere quarter mile... Not sure what's was up, wasn't out of breath or anything.

Still using Strong app, Tonal paid-off and no subscription mode. Did 3 exercises instead of 5-6 and still 3-4x sets, but all weights down 20% to get to 10-12 reps per set.

Back on TRT by doctor recommendation now since the 6mo clomid reboot didn't really work for T levels (they're asleep for good).
 

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MrKleen73

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Yeah, testosterone will do that to you. I have an opinion, and EVERYONE NEEDS TO HEAR IT!!! :)

Is he keeping you on the clomid to help with testicular volume?
 
PFlowReborn

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Yeah, testosterone will do that to you. I have an opinion, and EVERYONE NEEDS TO HEAR IT!!! :)

Is he keeping you on the clomid to help with testicular volume?
I still had 3x more refills of 90-day packs of clomid. I got one refill, can get two more... 270 total, since he just gave me tramadol too, was even offering Tamox (but he noted with my estradiol tanked no point right now). And I want to say being off TRT + lot of clomid ~6 months, really killed any remaining gyno.. He said if it comes back he'll give me Tamox if needed.

So I didn't want to appear to 'be desiring too many meds' since the benzo withdrawal seizure is noted in my medical history from Kaiser medical.. And he's cool, knows his stuff, but also seems to emphasize the 'scheduled nature' of Test and tramadol (seriously Tramadol isn't addictive, I mean I barely feel them compared to Oxy / Roxy 30mg type stuff used to party on in 20's).

Got morning shoulder in today, I have a 45-60 min window (7:30am > 8:30am) once I get kids/wife out in the morning.. if I'm not behind on work, I should be able to get somewhat consistent working out, and eating breakfast at the desk after.
 

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MrKleen73

MrKleen73

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People used to giving orders unchallenged do seem to get surprised when someone speaks up.
You know, as soon as you said that I could think of multiple times where I responded to something or spoke up to someone about something where they were obviously surprised and didn't really know how to handle the situation.
 

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